Good morning, Maurice. Welcome to Sikoia's Unified Interview Series. We're delighted to have you with us today.

Your career is quite fascinating, spanning finance, technology, and product design. These are typically distinct fields, yet you've managed to weave them together. Could you walk us through your journey? What initially drew you to each of these disciplines, and how did you come to work at their intersection?

I began my career as a full-stack engineer, which back in the day meant building everything from services and databases to the front end. This gave me a comprehensive understanding of digital product development. Over the years, I became interested in user experience design, trying to understand why users interact with applications the way they do and how to improve that experience. This interest extended to designing content management systems, document management systems, and even games for a time.

When I started working on projects for financial institutions, I combined my knowledge of technology and experience design. Over a decade ago, financial services customers weren't getting the service quality they deserved, especially in mobile apps. Coming from gaming design and other product design fields, I knew what was possible. This convergence of my experiences allowed me to see that banking could and should offer better services, similar to other sectors.

It was about combining different skills and knowledge to improve financial services.

Thank you for that insightful background. Let's pivot to your current role as Managing Director, Financial Services for the UK.[GM1]  Your diverse experience clearly gives you a unique perspective on innovation.

Could you elaborate on how you've leveraged this background to drive digital transformation for your financial services clients? Perhaps you could share a specific example or two of how your multidisciplinary approach has led to innovative solutions?

First and foremost, I have a great team around me at Zühlke. We are very collaborative, drawing on expertise from various verticals. My role involves keeping an eye on the banking industry, focusing on market trends and regulatory changes, while also considering innovations in other fields like blockchain and IoT.

For example, in payments, we explore how blockchain can manage payments and instant settlements (learn more from our recent panel discussion here). We also look at how gamification from other sectors can enhance the user experience. Additionally, we apply lessons from medical device regulations to banking. By building highly regulated products, like the Covid-19 app, we gained insights into automating the build of secure digital products. We then translate this knowledge to banking, enabling us to build highly secure and efficient mobile products.

We also leverage our experience with large-scale data projects, such as planning charging stations for a country, to apply machine learning in banking. This cross-industry knowledge allows us to bring innovative solutions to financial services efficiently and at a lower cost.

I'm really intrigued by how you draw ideas from such different fields like healthcare and gaming. It's a fascinating approach.

I'm curious, though - what sort of hurdles do you run into when trying to bring these ideas into financial services? We hear a lot about regulatory challenges, but I wonder if there's more to it than that? You mentioned earlier that medical regulations are even tougher than in finance. Given that, how do you size up what's needed to really drive innovation in the financial world? And lastly, from your experience, where are the real sticking points for innovation in finance? On the flip side, where do you see the most exciting opportunities for big changes?

So, there are a few different answers; it's not a simple linear thing. If you look at data, for example, it's an enabler and a cross-cutting one at that. But to enable a business, the data needs to be properly managed and accessible. In some cases, data becomes a barrier because you have lots of it, but you don't know where it is, its status, or how to get it to where it needs to be.

Then there's regulation. Many see it as a barrier, with regulators seemingly obstructing business operations. However, regulation can be an enabler. Take PSD2, for instance. While initially unpopular because it forced banks to open up their accounts to other banks, it has ultimately changed how we think about moving and managing money, offering deeper insights into financial health.

Innovation involves using different tools and techniques effectively. There’s a significant fear about machine learning and AI, but consider the advancements in predictive AI for financial health. By analysing how people use their devices and manage their money, we can tailor financial advice to improve their financial wellbeing.

So, these factors can be either enablers or barriers, depending on your perspective. My approach with our team is to flip things around, identify the pros and cons, and fight through to find the most innovative solutions. We use frameworks like the Kano model to distinguish between basic needs, performance needs, and excitement factors. For example, what would be a low-cost, high-value delight for a tier-three bank compared to a tier-one bank? The same applies to insurance: what excites brokers versus what’s essential for tier-three providers?

That's a good point. You mentioned PSD2 and open banking. Now, with discussions around open finance and PSD3, how do you see open banking and open finance as opportunities for incumbent banks versus new entrants? What role do incumbent banks play?

If you're an incumbent, especially in the UK, you already have a captive market. For the big four or five banks, these regulations can seem like a challenge because they require technological changes that expose your products and services to third parties. The knee-jerk reaction is to see this as a benefit to new entrants.

However, incumbents have a great opportunity to showcase best practices. By embracing these changes with innovative thinking, they can extend their market lead. They can provide secure access to financial data, improving customer experience and loyalty. For example, I once spoke with a head of product at a major bank who wanted to make their open banking experience so good that it became everyone’s homepage for banking.

Legacy systems and higher regulatory burdens make these changes hard, but not impossible. Smaller banks or new entrants, with fewer customers and lower regulatory burdens, can innovate more freely. If they face issues, the impact is smaller compared to a giant like Lloyds TSB with millions of daily users.

PSD3 and open finance represent a shift from just showing balances and transactions (open banking) to understanding behaviour, patterns, and products (open finance). The future is moving towards open everything, embedding finance into various aspects of life. This will require smart application layers and seamless integration, whether the value is stored on a blockchain or in a bank. The next decade will be fascinating as we navigate this progression.

Can you perhaps walk me through a recent project where you've used APIs and open architectures to create something new in digital banking? What did that look like in practice?‍

We had a client who wanted to enhance their loan repayment system. They already had a setup for processing loans, but they needed to externalise repayments to take advantage of the variable payment options introduced by the open banking spec.

We reworked their backend, from just below the interface layer to just above the core banking layer, enabling seamless integration with traditional payment rails like BACS and CHAPS, as well as other new rails. This allowed customers to choose various repayment methods, making the process smoother and more flexible. The end result was a simple user experience where customers could easily manage repayments from multiple accounts.

Another example involves a client whose entire architecture is built on open principles. Their system allows for receiving, making, and managing payments, and interacting with various financial institutions. We're helping them optimise their mobile proposition to ensure it can effectively support these interactions. This involves refining the user experience to make complex transactions straightforward and efficient.

That's very insightful. Moving on, what do you see in terms of innovation for the next five to ten years? Current projects are likely long-term, but how do you stay ahead of the curve and identify early adopters for new innovations?

Looking at near-term trends, Horizon One includes immediate regulatory changes like PSD3 and SEPA instant payments, which require outbound banks in the EU to provide instant settlements by September this year. We're focused on ensuring our clients can meet these requirements.

Horizon Two involves blockchain and decentralised finance (DeFi) ( read more on the subject on Zuehlke's blog here). We're seeing projects from institutions like the Bank of International Settlements exploring blockchain-based settlements. We've already assisted clients in implementing their first blockchains and cryptocurrencies, which is exciting.

Horizon Three looks further ahead. One area is quantum computing and security. We've written a white paper on quantum security, discussing how to protect data in a post-quantum world. As quantum computing becomes more prevalent, current cryptographic methods may become vulnerable, so we're exploring new algorithms and security standards to keep information safe.

In all these areas, it's crucial to consider the end-users, whether they're members of the public, brokers, or insurers. We need to ensure that our innovations not only meet technical and regulatory requirements but also provide a seamless and secure experience for all users.

And I guess that all your topics for Horizon 2 and Horizon 3, like distributed finance and post-quantum cryptography, aren't just about understanding what the customer wants or engaging with financial institutions. A lot of it is also dependent on the regulator. Do you and your team play a role in educating and influencing regulators?

We do spend a lot of time understanding regulations. I'm a bit of a regulation geek. For instance, when we read the UK government's consumer duty paper last year, it made perfect sense. The same goes for the CSRD or ESG regulations regarding environmental impact from financial institutions.

Our role is to educate our clients on how these regulations can be enablers. It's easy to view regulations as barriers, but they can also be seen as opportunities. For example, using CSRD regulations to attract more clients by showcasing a commitment to carbon impact. If carbon impact is important to customers, we can help them make better choices. Regulations around fraud and security also lead to better customer outcomes. Institutions can use these to demonstrate their commitment to customer security and enable more interactions.

Alright Maurice, we're coming to the end of our chat, and I've got one last question for you. I'd love to hear any advice you'd give. Whether it's to your younger self or to someone just starting in this field - what wisdom would you share?

Gosh, it's a very different space now than when I started. The advice we give our juniors at Zühlke is to be curious and empathetic. Regardless of your role—whether you're a data scientist, experience designer, business analyst, or product owner—curiosity will drive you to ask important questions like "How could we?", "What could we?", "Why should we?", and "Why shouldn't we?".

This curiosity fosters more interesting conversations and helps in developing solutions for people. At Zühlke, we emphasise that everyone, even backend engineers, should care about the end-users. When building an app for a large bank, we reminded our team that this is the bank their grandmothers might use. This perspective ensures that everyone understands the impact of their work on real people.

We once worked on a complex data forecasting project. Instead of diving straight into the maths, we visited the team using the earlier version of the software. We observed their daily work, their use of spreadsheets, and their processes. This hands-on experience helped our engineers see how the tool would be used, leading to a more empathetic and user-centric design. The result was a tool that users found more intuitive and helpful than they expected.

So, the key advice is to maintain curiosity and empathy. Always consider the end-user and strive to understand their needs and challenges.

Which I guess is being pragmatic, right?

It is. It's about really understanding how to ask powerful questions. For example, "I know you're saying you want this, but do you need this?" and "How do we prioritise your needs so we can deliver the essentials first, and then the wants?" My advice is to practise empathy and curiosity consistently. Where you start is not where you'll end up. The journey of understanding people's needs and providing for them is crucial. This isn't specific to financial services but is fundamental. The more we build products that just meet specs or regulations, the less we're building for people. But if we focus on building for people while adhering to specs and regulations, everyone benefits, and the system grows.

Very good answer. Is there anything else you'd like to add before we end the interview?

Thank you very much. These interviews always make me a bit uncomfortable—I have massive imposter syndrome—but I feel fortunate to have a great team that enables us to achieve great things. It's nice to share our approach to doing more, doing better, and continually pushing the needle forward. Innovation will guide us through the next 10-20 years, and I hope the future looks very different from what we envision now. The unexpected developments are what make it exciting. Thanks for the opportunity, Emmanuelle.

Well, thank you, Maurice. It’s been wonderful speaking with you. Your insights on implementation and improving the benefits are invaluable. Thank you so much for your time.

Thank you, Emmanuelle. It was a pleasure speaking with you.

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